Falsi Miti

Discussion of contemporary singers: Jonas Kaufmann, Juan Diego Flórez, Anna Netrebko, etc.
TifosoBonisolli
Posts: 69
Joined: 05 Jan 2016, 23:47

Re: Falsi Miti

Postby TifosoBonisolli » 22 Jan 2016, 00:57

oddjobman wrote:My apologies for wasting the space of the forum
Actually, your only waste of forum space was this remark. What I wrote earlier was completely serious and by no means ironic: it was my mistake, and it was completely reasonable when you made your point about Pappano and Flórez.
In fact, I made one more mistake because I forgot one more objection against their experiment: (4) Why on earth a cylinder if the singer in question was Caruso? He made only three cylinder recordings in his entire career (his first three recordings, for Pathé in 1901), and exclusively disc recordings for the long rest of the time, which is technically a very different thing.

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Pantenor
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Re: Falsi Miti

Postby Pantenor » 22 Jan 2016, 01:08

Calm down, guys... :D

oddjobman
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Re: Falsi Miti

Postby oddjobman » 22 Jan 2016, 09:39

TifosoBonisolli wrote:
oddjobman wrote:My apologies for wasting the space of the forum
Actually, your only waste of forum space was this remark. What I wrote earlier was completely serious and by no means ironic: it was my mistake, and it was completely reasonable when you made your point about Pappano and Flórez.
In fact, I made one more mistake because I forgot one more objection against their experiment: (4) Why on earth a cylinder if the singer in question was Caruso? He made only three cylinder recordings in his entire career (his first three recordings, for Pathé in 1901), and exclusively disc recordings for the long rest of the time, which is technically a very different thing.
I never say you wasted the forum's space. I was apologizing for myself wasting the forum space. If it wasn't for me replying to your post, you would not have written so extensively in the subject that show that you have better knowledge than everyone. :D :D :D

a57se
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Joined: 18 Jan 2016, 21:04

Re: Falsi Miti

Postby a57se » 22 Jan 2016, 14:34

Caruso was 'vulgar' to those who held the aesthetic prevalent in the late 19th century but not necessarily to those who were shaping the music of the day, namely Verdi, Puccini etc. You, tifosobonisolli, seem to hold the same aesthetic. That is your individual taste and I respect that. I don't share your taste.

TifosoBonisolli
Posts: 69
Joined: 05 Jan 2016, 23:47

Re: Falsi Miti

Postby TifosoBonisolli » 22 Jan 2016, 21:27

a57se wrote:Caruso was 'vulgar' to those who held the aesthetic prevalent in the late 19th century but not necessarily to those who were shaping the music of the day, namely Verdi, Puccini etc. You, tifosobonisolli, seem to hold the same aesthetic. That is your individual taste and I respect that. I don't share your taste.
Sorry indeed, but this would mean making your life too easy. It's not all a matter of taste! It *is* a matter of taste whether you call Caruso's (or Paoli's, or Ruffo's) singing "vulgar" or whether you prefer a gentler wording. It's *not* a matter of taste but a simple fact that Caruso's messa di voce, his top range, his voix mixte, his coloratura could not compare with his relevant contemporaries, and it's *not* a matter of taste that this deterioration of vocal technique reduced the possibilities of nuanced musical expression. It *is* again a matter of taste if you say "I prefer that inferior vocal technique as long as it comes with Caruso's vocal acting and his histrionic (as opposed to musical) expressivity". And it's *not* a matter of taste but plain wrong to claim that "Verdi, Puccini etc." advocated Caruso's and not de Lucia's or Anselmi's or Escalaïs' vocal culture. You're partly right for Puccini, who occupied a middle position in that respect; you're wrong for, as I explained earlier, Mascagni (one of the etceteras), whose model tenor de Lucia was (same goes, by the way, for Leoncavallo); and you are totally wrong for Verdi, for whom even de Lucia would have been a far too modern ("vulgar"?) singer.

As far as preferring inferior vocal technique plus more exciting vocal acting to the standard of the late 19th century (singing close to perfection, interpretation close to noninvolvement), that's of course a legitimate position, and other than what you assume, I'm in many ways inclined towards that position, too, my personal "Golden Age" being the 1920s and 1930s. (Though I admittedly prefer singers, and there were dozens and dozens of them, who did both the singing and the vocal acting better than Caruso. It just isn't necessary to push and bite the tones so as to give an adequate portray of a role - just think of names like Schipa, Muzio, Inghilleri, Endrèze, Kozlovskij, Wittrisch, Gigli, Baugé, Pernet, Domgraf-Fassbaender, Bohnen, Reizen, Supervia... I could go on with that list forever. It is true, however, that vocal acting comes at the extent of vocal refinement TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. But measuring - and limiting!! - that extent is the crucial question...) Actually, I can even enjoy many post-WWII recordings. I just wouldn't dream of negating that the vast majority of post-WWII singers (and in fact many post-Caruso singers, already prior to WWII) were/are vocally vulgar (or however you prefer to name it gently), even though I may enjoy or even adore them. They sure have other qualities, and your or my personal taste may value those qualities higher. But that doesn't make the concerned singers' legato or coloratura the teeniest bit better.

a57se
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Joined: 18 Jan 2016, 21:04

Re: Falsi Miti

Postby a57se » 23 Jan 2016, 04:54

Well, it is apparent that we totally disagree on what constututes good vocal technique so to continue this would be a waste...

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Jimlejim
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Re: Falsi Miti

Postby Jimlejim » 31 Jan 2016, 08:08

We need more false myths!
Tenor freak. :D

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Darksoprano
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Re: Falsi Miti

Postby Darksoprano » 31 Jan 2016, 08:18

Who is worth their legendary status?

TifosoBonisolli
Posts: 69
Joined: 05 Jan 2016, 23:47

Re: Falsi Miti

Postby TifosoBonisolli » 31 Jan 2016, 15:48

Jimlejim wrote:We need more false myths!
What if we, with the gentle permission of the OP (who never showed up on this thread again, anyway, and wouldn't thus seem intrigued by the discussion s/he has started), opened another can of worms and extended the topic to miti falsi from the present (starting in the 1970/1980s)?

Geoff
Posts: 153
Joined: 07 Jan 2016, 17:17

Re: Falsi Miti

Postby Geoff » 31 Jan 2016, 23:09

I said in my post of 11th January, I'm staying out of this one. Now you know why !
Regards,
Geoff.


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